Managing Client Expectations
Episode 006
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Points Covered
Nicole’s business journey
How Nicole manages her clients now compared to when she first started
The documents and systems Nicole has implemented over time to manage client expectations
Managing client onboarding and information gathering
Difference between over delivery and out of scope work
Where to start if you want to implement new client expectation strategies in your business
guest bio Nicole Macdonald
Hi! I'm Nicole and I am the founder/creative behind January Made Design, a boutique studio specialising in Squarespace websites and bespoke branding. I intentionally work with passionate, committed and driven businesses, creatives and entrepreneurs to outfit their business with stunning, timeless and functional design.
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Episode Transcript
Lauren: Welcome to Episode 6 of The Seriously Sorted Podcast, and I am so excited that today is my very first interview episode. It's going to be with Nicole McDonald from January Made Design and we're going to be talking everything to do with client expectations. We talk about Nicole's business journey to date, how Nicole manages her clients now compared to when she first started, the documentation and systems that she's implemented over time to manage client expectations, managing client onboarding and information gathering, the difference between over delivery and out of scope work and where to start if you want to implement new client strategies in your business. So who is Nicole? So Nicole is the founder and creative behind January Made Design, a boutique studio specialising in Squarespace websites and bespoke branding. She intentionally works with passionate, committed and driven businesses, creatives and entrepreneurs to outfit their business with stunning timeless and functional design. And I can personally attest to this as I am a very lucky client of Nicole's. Okay. Without further ado, let's get into the episode.
Hi, Nicole, and welcome to The Seriously Sorted Podcast! I think I feel like you're the only other person that's known of the intention to do this podcast since the beginning because I'm a client of yours and I got you to redo my website when I moved to Squarespace and part of that process was building out my podcast landing page. And that was like six months ago at the time of this recording. So my podcast landing page has existed longer than the podcast itself.
Okay, so I always knew I wanted you for this episode, because of my client experience with you. Like as a systems and processes nerd, you might not know but you kind of wooed me from the start from even just even just like being on your website and seeing all the information that I could absorb and understand about the process, and you, you kind of had me hooked before I even inquired. I guess I want to talk to you about how your processes have evolved over time and everything like that. We're talking, managing client expectations. But first, tell me a little bit about how January Made came to be sure.
Nicole’s business journey
Nicole: Sure thing, well first, thank you for having me. I started off I always wanted to do something design related, I guess I was always design/arty related at school. I actually went and studied for four years at university, which was great. It was it gave me a very big overview of all the design stuff that I could get my hands on. I did very blue sky, you know, thinking so very "just go for it", "don't worry about budget", "don't worry specifically about a client", "just go for it". It was great. But at the end of the four years, I was so burnt out I was I didn't even want to do design anymore. So I actually landed a little job at a local council and probably a year into that just doing like I just did data, data entry and really boring stuff. I didn't have to think too much about it and I did like that. But eventually I did start to feel the pole towards design again and that's when the little side business started. So I think I had January Made on the side for two almost three years I think, so that's why I say I've been full time now for three years but the business is probably going on maybe five years ish. But yeah, I had it on the side for quite a long time because I'm very , I'm the same I'm very systems based and and I like to trial things I had to make sure it was gonna be absolutely viable, yeah, as a business before I went full time. And the main reason I did go full time wasn't just because I want to get back into design because working at counsel, I was given a really good overview there of clients in working to a budget and working to a timeline and that sort of stuff. But it also showed me the people that I did want to work with and not so much wanting to work with. So that's where the whole ideal client thing popped up and I thought, well, I can do that if I have my own business. So that's where it sort of, everything sort of started and I loved my time at council it I would recommend local government to any anybody starting any sort of business.
Lauren: Yeah, I worked at Department of Human Services in Victoria for three years in a policy area and yeah nothing will teach you more about systems and processes than working in a policy area of the government.
Nicole: So many people so many other creatives and businesses I've talked to have started in government, and it's a good place to start because it shows you the real world. And maybe not who you want to work with all the time.
managing nicole’s clients in the beginning and now
Lauren: Yeah, just a bit. So obviously, your systems and processes have evolved over time. But I think it'd be really valuable to hear from a creative about what it's like in the beginning, like the challenges you faced, how systems and processes, the resources and software that you've got in place have really supported your your time in your business and your clients expectations of working with you. So tell me at the moment, like how do you sort of manage your your routine and your time management with your clients like you have a monthly intake for example?
Nicole: Yeah, I so I'm, I guess the root of it all, a lot of it is I am quite introverted. So I find that I'm not gonna be the first person to jump on a call with clients. I like to get people really, really informed first before they come which is what you were saying about my website. So I put out a lot of information. So you can read it off first because that's how I would book someone like that’s how what my ideal clients would be a little bit more like me, or like you so yeah, so I want to put out all the information and then, so I like to put out my booking schedule, I like to put out my pricing and that sort of stuff. And, yeah, following on from it, the whole monthly booking is, again, one of those, it's an organisational thing, for me, it's very clean. So I start projects on the first Monday of every month so and it's generally about around the same time no matter what time zone you're in, you know, give or take a couple of hours. But it's it's clean. It's I think I would yeah, I would lose a lot of clients not lose them but I would and not forget about them, but I know that if I started something middle of the month, yeah, it's just gonna get messy because then it's going to go another mid month to when it finishes. So yeah, I find it easy to book that way. And then if anyone ever asks or if anyone knows me, they can go off I know that she books on start of the month so yeah, if I'm getting in touch one day before the end of the month I'm probably going to be booked out so...
Lauren: And they will know that because that's on your website when they go to contact you it has please inquire but please know that this month and next month and booked out and your first availability is the third month or whatever it might be. So I'm sure that wasn't always the case. So can you share a little bit about like what it was like in the beginning trying to figure out your own sort of schedule and routine, and trying to figure out how to manage your clients expectations of you and your expectations of them.
Nicole: Oh my gosh, in the beginning, it was it was a hectic so I used to I actually had a little folder a little physical folder of pieces of paper with you know, the client name and what we were doing and I'd have it all written down and in the beginning as well I hit a lot more services and being like quoting was a nightmare because everyone who bought in slightly different things they were never sure what they were going to get or what the pricing was going to be. It was messy and I think I would just you know how everybody starts you take on you say yes to everybody. Yeah, I would take on it was before I learned how to the sweet spot how many people to take on per month so I think I was taking on it'd be upwards of 10 projects. I think, yeah, and it was just there was too much going on and eventually I developed this sort of that month to month booking and then that went on to looking at right how many people can I work with per month before I lose my sanity? But then also how many is gonna work out you know, as viable for the business. Am I gonna make enough money. And then also, it also comes down to you know, working with ideal clients, I wanted to take on the perfect people each month. And that's still something I'm still still working on. But that's where a lot of the resources have come in, I try and weed out people that might not be a good match. And I don't want to waste anybody's time, either. I want you to know, you come to my website, and you look at everything, you can make the decision whether we're a good match or not. And keep, you know, keep proceeding with inquiring. So it's still it's absolutely a work in progress. I definitely don't think I've got it 100% sorted. But I think that's the fun of it is every time I work with somebody, I'll add a little step and a process or I'll add another item in my system to make sure that it's going to be a better experience.
Nicole’s resources and processes
Lauren: Yep. And speaking of resources, so let me rattle off just a few of the resources that I know about from my experience that you have. So you've got your availability on your website. You've got your package inclusions and from pricing on your website. You've got process and timeline information on your website. You've got a constructive feedback guide in your resource library, as well as when you know, you give me the first round of something, I get that as well. You've got a Frequently Asked Questions section, you have email reminders once you're a client to remind me very politely and gently that I have a whole tonne of stuff that I need to give you before you'll start my job, thank you very much. You've got auto replies, when I send you an email to let me know, you know, your turnaround time to reply to my email, whether that's an enquiry or part about working together. And of course, you're managing your clients in a CRM at the moment. That's just what I can think of off the top of my head people. So can you share like how did you first sort of start to build up that suite of supportive documentation, I suppose and maybe like, what are the people ones that you just couldn't leave with that now and all that get us the most, for example?
Nicole: They've been so helpful. I think it goes back to the the introversion thing where I hate seeing manually I hate people sending people reminders, it just makes my heart thump like I don't I don't like chasing up anything like, and then also yeah, time management. So a lot of the resources that I put out, I found that I was sending out the same email, I would I think it gets to about probably about five emails that I've sent people from I'm like right, I need a resource for that. So all of the resources that I generally put out are based on I'll come out of working with a client ago, right, I think a resource or something automated here would have made it a bit easier for them. I'm getting the same question, so I'd be to make a frequently asked questions. And it's mostly, they do come from they always come from a place so they help and transparency. So I want to be able to offer that information without having to like drive it down your throat with an email. I don't want to I want to, I guess empower people to learn more about the process. And yeah, Dubsado my CRM has been one of the biggest biggest helps, I couldn't live without it. That seemed out all my automated emails or my resources, forms contracts. I would recommend that to anybody who it's like having a staff member without having to pay for another staff member.
Lauren: It's a very cheap staff member to be honest. So for those that don't know, a CRM is a Customer Relationship Management software where you would enter potential enquiries and also onboard someone and then you can manage the whole project through the CRM, which is what Nicole does. It's got a portal function, I can go in and see where she's at with my stuff and check my invoices make sure I've paid them, lots of different things. So CRMs are yes an amazing, like second in charge person.
Managing client onboarding and information gathering
Lauren: Next few questions I think a lot of creators will find really interesting your insights. So the first one would be managing client pre-work and clients not getting back to you in the feedback process. So creatives need in general, a lot of work done by the client and sometimes I think clients don't necessarily understand how much work they need to do before you can do your best work. And so I know you've got a few different things in place to try and remind us all very gently that we need things a particular times. And I guess I'd just like your thoughts on like, how your experience on how you manage that and how you know where's the line in the sand where you won't start a project, for example, if someone hasn't given you enough versus you've got enough to start with, like, how do you manage that collection process for example, through to execution?
Nicole: That is such a good question. It is so true, I don't think and I'm trying to get a lot more information out about what is needed to be provided to make start on a project. I think I get it, like you're investing in a designer, so you want, you know, you're, you want to put everything in their hands, and they design stuff and that'sit in an ideal world. But for us to be able to do, like you said, our best work, we need quality content or quality feedback to be able to do that. And it's just just about taking ownership. So if you want something done, right, you've sent the right content, so we can design it and also, it's for me, it's trying to limit like I don't want to cost anybody any more money or time, so the less time I have to go back and say, "Hey, I need more than content" or "this is maybe not quite the right content", it just adds up and it's not good use of anybody's time. So I do judge it based off the person I'm working with. So if I know that you're pretty, you know, you're happy to put anything in my hands and happy for me to take initiative, which I sort of judged based, you know, when we do mine or I do my intake and I work with you, I can tell if you're, you know, happy with that sort of stuff, or I have been burned in the past but people who say, "Oh, you know, just just or whatever, I'll know when I see it", and then you've seen that back and it's wrong, that's, that's the biggest thing that I it just, oh, just breaks my heart it. Yeah, it's so hard to work because I don't know if it's going to be wrong until I send it because I don't have the right content. So the line in the sand is, yeah, it is always based off the project and what I'm doing especially, I mean, if it's template based, it's a little bit easier because you can go back and edit it yourself. But if it's a finalised product that we also have a deadline on. I need content, I need the right content to be able to put in the best work so we meet your deadline. And it's yeah, quality design. The things that I always need the most would be knowing your target audience. That's the biggest one that I, I think, no matter what project, no matter who I'm working on, if I don't know who I'm designing then, I can't ensure that it's going to look correct for that audience. And then the other ones just probably website content is the biggest one because I'm not a copywriter. I often get mistaken for a copywriter.
creatives defining their role
Lauren: And you've recently done a few posts on that on defining your role in sort of the whole, I guess, branding process. And there are definitely some misconceptions out there I think that website designers are also copywriters, are also graphic designers and different things like that. And I know you've created a couple of resources for other creatives for them to sort of tweak as they see fit to decide where is their, what is in scope of their role, I suppose. So do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, so that one actually turned out to be quite controversial because I got quite a lot of not flack, but I got some healthy arguments, which is really interesting. So my, my thought process for me is that I have niched down quite specifically to I specialise in just Squarespace website design, and just branding, and it has its own sort of features that I put out, but for me, I don't want to do I'm not a copywriter. And I'm very vocal about that. And I'm not going to proof content because it's just not my passion. So there's a lot of things that I do include and love to work on. There's also stuff that I don't so I I wanted to put out a bit of a roles expectations and it differs between every designer and I think that's where maybe it got a bit miscommunicated Yeah, a little bit heated.
Lauren: It was for them to tailor as they see fit, and you just happen to put it out as what is in scope for you. And I think people decided, oh, well, my scope is a bit different. And it was kind of like, well, that's totally cool, change it as you see fit.
Nicole: Yeah, I had a lot of designers go well, yeah, private message me and say well I do do copywriting. And I do do this, and I think you should offer it and i said that's great, like you're, you're a unicorn, you're , you know, make sure you're selling that point. Because there's a lot of people like me that don't. And it's personal reasons. Also, it keeps costs down for me and for the client, because I'm not adding all those extra features in. Then I had a lot of clients say, oh, I asked my designer to do all this, this and this and they don't mind, and that's also fine. But I just want to make sure that you didn't just expect it off them and they weren't sort of backed into a corner because you expected them to do this, this and this and yeah.
difference between over delivering versus out of scope work
Lauren: What a segue into my next question, which is around over delivering versus out of scope work. Which I think again, a lot of creatives would be interested in your thoughts on how you manage this because it's kind of awkward, like, let's be honest. And I have been guilty of it myself, I try and always when I asked when I know I'm asking for something, in addition, I've always kind of like if you have capacity, and if you can add it to the scope and add it to the invoice. But there would be a lot of people that don't really understand even though you've done a proposal and it's all itemised on their initial invoice, sort of yeah, where the line, again, another line in the sand I guess for yourself to manage expectations for your income. The difference between over delivering because we do all love to over deliver and surprise and delight and all that. But there comes a point where you're sort of giving away your services for free and something's out of scope, and I know you're very good at articulating that in a polite way. When it's happened to me, sorry. Can you share a little bit about your experience? And how and I'm sure that's evolved over time, right. So that it was probably super duper awkward at the start, and now that you found your ideal client as well, like, you probably have to do it less, I'm hoping, but also, you can probably articulate it in a more constructive way?
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. So that's, yeah, it is such an awkward again, I wish I didn't have to go through any of it. Yeah. In an ideal world, I would every time you ask, anytime anybody asked for anything. I'd be like, yep, absolutely. And what I do want to say is I always want to, it's always absolutely like, yes, oh, my god, I would love to do all that for you, absolutely. And then the line in the sand it's, it's a tricky one. And I know it's tricky for a lot of designers and new designers or anybody in the business. You know, when you're asked to do anything in it, I always base it off, you know, who I'm working with. Because it's always, you know, I don't want to say you know, if you ask really nicely I’ll tend to do it, but it is a thing like if you don't expect it and you are asking you are acknowledging that I may, you know, not have capacity or you are acknowledging that it is extra, I might be able to squeeze it in. And but then if somebody just comes in big space and says, oh, can you do this deadlines tomorrow? And yeah, so, and it depends on yeah, it depends on the project as well, because there are some things that and that's where I try and get out as much, I guess, resources and information on as some things that you people as a client, and it's nobody's fault, but you might think, oh, it's gonna take five seconds. And then on my end, it's like, yeah, it might be a lot more than that. But yeah, my policy is just always try and try and work with the out of scope requests. Look at my timeline, look at the scope of the complexity of the work. And then also look at the person that I'm working with. And if, you know if we have a good working relationship, or if you've just come to me, and it's just expected then it might, you know, just be pushed down and priority until I can get other stuff done.
Lauren: I think you're very good at like managing that expectation from my experience in that, you'll always want to do it, if it's something that you can do. So it's not, it's never a no, it's actually I can do it in this time frame, which is probably not within this current project, for X amount. So you're sort of in you know, reminding someone that it's absolutely doable, but just not right now. I think you really good at doing that.
Nicole: Yeah, or if it's not, yeah, it might not be right now or it might be X amount to push it to the front, you know, you never as much as you want to give everything away for free, there are circumstances where you could possibly, you know, push it in front of the queue you're going to like you'll have to pay for that, because that's how the world works and business works if you want it in a day, but you haven't, you know, manage your time and let me know beforehand, then that might just cost a bit for overtime. And it's not it's never anything personal. It's horrible. I hate it. It's the business side of business, that, you're not really told about when you start.
Lauren: But it's like something that's so like, you know, service providers are in service of others, and all they really want to do deep down is help but it's ultimately a business. So it's yeah, we've got to draw the line in the sand.
managing client feedback
Lauren: Something else I just thought of was actually managing your expectations of clients with regards to feedback. That's another thing you've spoken about really recently about what is constructive feedback versus what is, I guess, useless feedback. Do you have any sort of experiences about like, people out there who out clients of website designers, and clients of copywriters and things, what is what is an example of feedback that is absolutely useless, versus feedback that is on the money, and constructive and you can work with.
Nicole: Oh, this is this is such a good one, feedback is one of the constant battles that I have. And it's and again, it's nobody's fault. I, when I first started, I thought, I just assumed that everybody learnt feedback at school. I mean, I, I'm pretty sure I learnt it at Primary School. I don't know how it came up, but I just learnt what's constructive and what's not. And I carried that through and when I got my first clients and the feedback was oh one of the toughest ones is like, make it make it bigger, make a logo bigger and it's like, well, yeah. And then I just I found myself answering that one again and again, and I thought that's where the guide was born. Yeah, because you don't know I guess until you've gone through the process. But it's like I like to compare feedback, constructive feedback to baking a cake or telling somebody the old fashioned way, instead of using Google Maps, but how to tell somebody where to find you say, if they're coming to see you at a cafe, you know, you would, if you don't give them the right feedback, you're not going to get the right result. They're not gonna get a good cake or go to the wrong cafe. And that's that's basically how or a house is how I also like to make those like a house. Make it so if you yeah, or if you aren't 100% sure about something and then you put the cladding on the house, and you wanted a brick instead of wood, that's a big deal. Yes. Yeah, the one with the logo is not having the business name. So can you design my logo, but I don't have my business name yet. Like, we'll design the house but not put plumbing in or I don't know. Yes, I've had that one before. And, yeah, it's again, it's nobody's fault. But it's just thinking about right, well, if I'm giving somebody feedback, I want them to be able to, I want my designer to be able to implement it correctly. And you don't have to have all the right words. I think I said it in a post, but you can call it like, you know, move the sticky thing up. Or can you make the font a bit better?
Lauren: Yeah, like, I mean, with a house like a builder doesn't expect the client to understand how he's going to build the house. So he has to make sure he's asking the right questions. I guess it's no different that you've got to make sure you ask the right questions. And check that you've got the understanding right for it to work well.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. And it may come off, probably everyone that I've ever worked with is like, oh my god, she's so anal about details, but it's just I want to get the perfect result. So I have to be a little bit over the top getting the details.
Lauren: So I can tell you from experience that like we've done what three projects now together, I think in the last six. You know my brand so well now and you've collected so much detail that I like, every time you produce something for me, I have literally no changes. Like, it's literally perfect, like, each time and it's just so lovely because I don't have to get oh, she's not understood, or is that because I haven't explained correctly. Like there's no misunderstanding unless I'm having a really off day and I've actually given you the wrong instruction. But yeah, like and that's for me the sign that you've collected all the information you need to do your best work because I've yeah, I have absolute trust in you that you understand what I want and it's so delightful. I get so excited to to receive the you know, the new web page or whatever the new logo, whatever it might be, because I kind of know I'm just gonna love it. And that is down to you having collected the right information from me, me being able to communicate what I want to you, and that's a testament to sort of the communication tools and resources that you've built as a designer, I think.
Nicole: Oh, thank you. That's exactly it. I was just, yes. If you allow me to get in and learn more about your business and your brand, and you give me all the details, it does make it you know, easier to work. And that's what I would always love. I mean, if we didn't have any refinement rounds, and we got it perfect every time, I mean, that's, that's fantastic. I don't want you know, I'm here to make you not have to worry about design or anything like that. So if I can make it easier on you, so you don't have to put any more time in than you have to, then that’s a good result.
Lauren: And then I get to take the credit when people say, oh, Lauren, your website is absolutely beautiful. And I always say, Nicole from January Made designed it, but I will say like thank you as if it's me.
Nicole: Oh, no, thank you. But then I also say to people when they say I love this design, well, it's not possible if I didn't get that amazing feedback or that content or, you know, yeah, those refinements to make it how it is.
Lauren: Yeah, it's still only as good. It's no different to like using a CRM or anything like that, like it's your work is only as good as the information that you receive. So, and that's about, you know, clients investing in beautiful photos and good copy and things like that, like the client is providing those to you. So you've only got what they've given you to work with, I suppose.
Where to start if you want to implement new client expectation strategies in your business
Lauren: So a lot of these resources are actually available for designers, right to actually tweak themselves. But if someone was wanting to sort of start with a couple of resources, if there's someone listening out there, who's a designer, copywriter, photographer, what are the sort of the key like maybe one or two things that you think they should start with? Like, is it canned emails? Is it going back a step and working out probably like, what their capacity is, first by the sounds of things? And then what kind of resources would you recommend they sort of work on first to help manage their client expectations?
Nicole: Oh, I think yeah, definitely start with... I've got so many resources. I think I think for anybody starting anywhere, I think really just nail down the target audience. I think that's the good one that I like everybody to start with no matter where you are. If you've got that nailed then everything sort of flows on from that. Because then you can be very clear about who you want to work with and then what you want to offer them and then everything you offer is sort of targeted at them and then probably the website content resources really good. There's so many to chose from.
Get in touch with nicole
Lauren: So for those listening who want to get in touch with you, how can they visit you talk to you get in touch with you?
Nicole: I always say start with Instagram because I think it's a good, I probably overshare on there. But it's got a good showcase of my personality. And that's @januarymadedesign for Instagram and then my website I think is a good place to go next for just a tonne of information. Yeah, www.januarymade.co.nz. And that's got resources on there lots of free resources as well as if you want to have a look at your timelines, processes, FAQs, bits and pieces and then yeah, I'll just say if anyone ever wants to work with me just email by my contact page and, and I'll get back to you.
Lauren: And they'll get the auto response and away we go!
Nicole: Exactly exactly. Everybody on boarded and it's all perfectly sorted out.
Lauren: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast and for being my very first guest. I feel like it's quite fitting because you've known about this the longest. So thank you so much.We worked it out together.
Nicole: Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.
Lauren: Excellent. Thanks Nicole!
your podcast hostess Lauren Stratford
I’m Lauren and I help overwhelmed creatives like you embrace their strengths, get clear on their customer journey and maximise their impact (without adding to the never ending task list!).
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